perhaps a chase with mini coopers and a man with saws for hands. is that how they found out about this? >> law enforcement and multiple u.s. paula broadwell, his biographer were indicative of an extramarital affair. . >> really? e-mail? all they had to do to have america's general is to log on to his e-mail? any way we can intrigue that little sound bite up a bit? multiple law enforcement officials tell us e-mails between him and paula broadwell, his biographer were indicative of an extramarital affair. >> how exciting. >> good morning. it is tuesday, november 13th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have national affairs editor for new york magazine and msnbc political

analyst john heilemann. msnbc political analyst mark haleprin, and the author of a new book "thomas jefferson: the art of power," jon meacham. >> who never e-mailed anyone. >> are you sure? >> actually, no. >> best-selling, that thing skyrocketed -- >> the fbi is looking into monticello e-mail. >> thomas jefferson, the randy bugger. >> by the way, heilemann is the national affairs writer for -- >> yes. >> this is going to be a long show. >> by the way -- >> growth industry. >> in the line of booty, "new york daily news." this thing's just getting a little weird. this lady right here gets the fbi to investigate. >> yeah. and what fbi agent does she go to? >> the guy who sent her the shirtless pictures. >> you know who i'm going to go to? i'm going to go first to the guy who sent me shirtless pictures.

>> the lewis -- >> this guy sent me a shirtless picture, i'm going to go with him. we get a relationship, i'm sure it's platonic. >> i have no idea, seriously, the connection there, but thank you for -- >> he's classing the place up. >> don't forget she's an identical twin, at some point in this story, i'm sure we'll have a switcharoo. >> okay. >> so she goes to the fbi, and we find out -- threaten her life. threaten her life? no, the e-mails say, i know you were touching general petraeus under the table. >> inappropriately. >> inappropriately, somebody saw you. >> okay. >> and for this, the fbi goes to their cyber division and launches in the age of terror when people want to blow up our bridges and our tunnels and

contaminate our water supply, half dozen e-mails, which includes sixth grade taunts, i know you were touching johnny under the table. >> okay. >> inappropriately. they launch an investigation. mika, this is sort of relevant, the "new york times" has a story. >> i know. >> talking about it where a guy, like an expert's going okay, what? really, the fbi launching an investigation over this? >> it is extremely confusing. why don't we start with the developing news in the general david petraeus scandal. >> well, you know, there's another general. >> now involving the top commander in afghanistan. general john allen is being investigated for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. >> seriously? >> with this woman. >> is there like a club? >> apparently. is he sending topless pictures also? >> she's the woman who reportedly received those threatening e-mails from paula broadwell, david petraeus'

biographer. >> still allegedly on that. >> allegedly threatening e-mails. >> with whom petraeus is said to have an affair. general allen took over command from general petraeus after petraeus was tapped for the cia. now, officials are reviewing up to 30,000 pages of communications. >> stop right now. i'm not -- okay. >> i don't know math -- >> 30,000. >> it was a very big font. >> it might be times roman 18. hold on a second. >> almost as big as the font of this headline. >> do we have that number right? >> hold on a second, i'm not really good at math. >> my eyes are bad. >> i think i've proven this, not good at math. let's talk to a guy who went to harvard. >> true. >> you've got two years. >> you're running a war. >> you're running a war, first of all. >> sure. >> most important war, decade long war, you've got to bring it to a close, a lot of stuff going on over there, taliban blowing

your people up, work with the afghans, turning guns on you, you're not focused here. let's say you sent 30,000 e-mails over a two-year time period. what does that break down to per day? >> we don't know the time period. >> yes, we do, 2010 through 2012, 30,000 e-mails over that time period. pages. pages of e-mails. >> he's doing the math. >> i can do that much math. that's 15,000 a year. >> when did he leave? >> he hasn't left yet. he's up for a promotion right now. >> i think i have -- >> when was he based in tampa, though? >> i don't know these things. >> okay. >> what number are we trying to come up with? >> he sent 30,000 pages of e-mails to this woman -- >> well, that's not -- >> i don't think that's actually clear. what they said is that's the number of documents they've looked at. >> it could be two attachments. >> they also could've looked at all of her e-mail she sent to

everyone. this could be the total e-mail volume the two of them sent to everyone. >> does this make you feel better? >> it's not clear if the e-mails involved sexual material. >> well, if you're going to send that many e-mails. >> if it were just over two years, if it were just 30,000 e-mails between them, that would be 41.09 e-mails a day. >> well, this is why -- >> that's not unreasonable. >> there's one report suggested one of the e-mails contained a draft manuscript of your book. you're accused. >> i withdraw my calculator. >> general allen says he's done nothing wrong. overnight in south carolina, fbi agents searched the home of paula broadwell, seen leaving the home with boxes, suitcases, and photographs. new details, meanwhile, continue to emerge about the fbi's handling of the case. meanwhile, officials tell nbc news and the "wall street journal" the fbi agent who launched the initial investigation was later pulled

off the case due to inappropriate behavior including allegedly sending shirtless photos of himself to jill kelley also a friend of the petraeus family. >> but, it is important for context that the shirtless picture of the fbi agent was sent to jill kelley before the investigation began. >> that agent apparently -- >> and she went to this agent after -- you know, because you want an fbi agent who will send you a shirtless photo -- >> the shirtless photos are a predicate. and the good news about the shirtless photos is it's going to make the coffee table book about this whole thing all that much better. >> you know, she -- >> anthony weiner was one of them and then there was that republican guy. >> you think about this woman. >> okay, guys. >> why we only remember him as that republican. >> this woman seems to have had a very wide social network. >> she has -- >> she knows a lot of people in the military and the fbi.

she seems to -- >> she knew this fbi agent somehow. >> that's true. >> she had some kind of a hoste? hosts military-related events in tampa. >> yes, she does. gets shirtless photos. >> apparently. >> it's the job description. >> christopher lee was the congressman. >> christopher lee. >> that agent we were talking about apparently grew concerned the investigation into the harassing e-mails -- >> wait, that agent, you mean the one without the shirt. >> yeah, the shirtless agent. >> so he's concerned. the shirtless agent's concerned. >> and contacted a member of congress even though the white house was still unaware of the case. chair of the senate intelligence committee, senator dianne feinstein says she is growing more concerned as this story unfolds. >> generally, what we call the four corners, the chair and rankings of both committees are

briefed on operationally sensitive matters. this is certainly an operationally sensitive manner matter, but we weren't briefed. i don't know who made that decision. and that makes it much more difficult. this thing came so fast and so hard and since then it's been like peeling an onion. every day, another peel comes off and you see a whole new dimension to this. so my concern has actually escalated over the last few days. >> all right. and for the first time secretary of defense leon panetta who previously served as director of the cia weighed in about general david petraeus' sudden resignation. during a flight to australia, reporters asked if general petraeus could be prosecuted if it's determined he was having an affair while on active duty in the military. >> you know, i don't know. i don't know the answer to that. i guess i'm -- i'm reading the papers like you are to determine

just, you know, what the committee finds out, what the ultimate investigation determines on that issue. we, you know, we obviously are going to, you know, watch this closely to determine just exactly, you know, when that took place. >> panetta also appeared to side with lawmakers who say the fbi should've informed them about the investigation sooner. >> that's another issue i think we ought to look at. you know, as a former director of the cia and having worked very closely with the intelligence committee, you know, i believe that there is a responsibility to make sure that the intelligence committees are informed of issues that could affect, you know, the security of those intelligence operations. >> all right. can we move on? >> i don't think so. >> why not? >> because -- i think this th g thing -- this all began with an

investigation that from what we've seen over two days a lot of experts are asking why it started. and i think that's a very legitimate question. >> can i clarify one thing? >> i would love, unless it's a clarification of something i said and then it's time to go on to the next story. >> it's correct this guy, the shirtless agent from the topless bar, he's the guy who then went to the republican on capitol hill, right? >> yeah. >> he thought -- he thought the investigation had stalled and was trying to now effectively, it sounds like kind of go freelance. >> and the guy was a run away beer truck -- >> to try to get republicans to jump on this because he thought his colleagues had dropped the ball. is that correct? >> yeah, that's correct. >> that made then to yesterday to our discussion of why did republicans decide not to make an issue, the reason they reported it back to the fbi because they had some question about the motives of this -- >> of this guy. >> of this agent, right?

they may have been behaving responsibly by not politicizing this, not taking this public because they could see this guy conceivably was kind of a rogue agent. >> you get a lot of crazy calls, a lot of crazy e-mails, and i'm sure they probably didn't believe it but said we need to pass it along. i want to read a quote from the "new york times" story on the fbi inquiring into e-mails raises questions on motives on page a-11. george university law professor says it was, quote, surprising they would devote such resources to an investigation that was behind half a dozen e-mails. the fbi gets a lot of tips and investigating any one case requires an agent or a few agents to spend a lot of time, he said. they can't do this for every case. and the issue is, why this one case? and, again, from what we have gathered over two days, there were no harassing e-mails. the only specifics are -- does

your husband know what you're doing is one e-mail? and another e-mail, again, straight from fifth grade, you know, home ec class, i saw you touching david -- >> inappropriately. >> -- inappropriately under the dinner table. and for this, the fbi launches an investigation that takes down a cia director? >> and by the way, ravages the lives of many people. >> destroys the lives of many people. the fbi has so much to answer for. >> well, and for that -- >> in this age of terror. >> and for that, they got a warrant to go through a private citizen's e-mails, which, you know, the bar on that should be relatively high. look, there are two big policy questions that still need to be examined. one is what you were just talking about. why is this investigation launched? why were they going through people's private e-mails. and the other is the notification, sometimes wanting a little attention to complain they don't get enough

notification from the executive branch, but in this case, not notifying the white house, not notifying the congressional oversight, i can't understand that. >> it is disgraceful. and the question to ask is this, on the -- we talk about the fbi and the cia hating each other. i wonder if the fbi agents would've followed this through if it had been the fbi director that had been mentioned here. because there's no suggestion of any crime. there's a suggestion that maybe the head of the cia may be involved in something like this. but, again, strictly personal. harassing e-mails, no threatening e-mails. they launch, again, i can't underline it enough, half dozen nonthreatening, we believe, e-mails based on what we know. based on a romantic battle over the affections of one man, perhaps. and you may have been, i know

what you're doing, somebody saw you touching him inappropriately under the table. jon meacham, again, in the post 9/11 era where the fbi is supposed to be protecting our children from terrorist attacks, they waste resources on this? and bring down the director of the cia on this? based -- i mean, a shirtless, you know -- an fbi agent. it's disgraceful. appears disgraceful what the fbi has done here. >> and there's a game we like to play around my house called what are the odds? what are the odds you get a republican -- apparently republican-leaning fbi agent who is so interested in a woman that he sends her shirtless pictures who is the agent that -- >> well, first of all, that republicans send shirtless photos, odds are pretty good there. you're going to have to link -- >> the thing about it. here you have this highly decorated man, we talk about his doctrine and remarkable career, and this series of really odd

coincidences leads to this chain of events. and what i continue not to understand is the chain of responsible command of inside the fbi and what point, you know, where did the warrant come from? at what point was some responsible officer there to say no, not here. >> how do you get a warrant for that? >> how do you get a warrant for that? what do you tell the judge? >> and again, talking about the fbi, talking about the judge. let's talk about all the walls the fbi crashed through. first of all, they launch a -- they use their cyber unit to launch an investigation on half dozen e-mails talking about a purported affair. they launch a cyber investigation there. and then they start digging in and they have to go into a private citizen's e-mail account. and so they go into paula broadwell's private e-mail accounts, they've crashed through a wall there. the facts as we know it do not

justify other than somebody wants to embarrass david petraeus. >> right. >> and then they get into paula broadwell's e-mails, then break down another wall to get into david petraeus' e-mail account. and then they justify that and break down that wall and say, well, you know, national security may have been compromised because maybe she sent along classified documents, but she didn't, so there, somebody responsible at the fbi has to say, okay, guys, you know what? nothing to see here. it's internal investigation, you know, petraeus may be acting up, but this is no longer a crime. they said it wasn't a crime and then at that point, they breakthrough that wall. >> but at this point -- >> and then they spread it out beyond the walls of the fbi. >> is there not -- it seems like the first instance here is the -- is like the original sin, the first decision -- >> the original sin is the biggest sin. >> once they get to -- at least not being an expert on this, but the news accounts, once they get to the point where they know

that petraeus and broadwell have set up separate e-mail accounts to communicate, it says they start -- >> no, not a crime. so the news accounts, the fbi started to think that outsiders had been able to get access to petraeus' private e-mail account. which, again, at least starts to create a justification for thinking about concerns about classified security -- >> okay. >> i'm not trying to -- >> no, that's fine. >> i'm just -- >> so -- fine, so you break down that wall. let's get to the middle of this. you break down that wall and they're afraid now that david petraeus is giving paula broadwell classified information. okay, you conduct your investigation, you find out that's not the case at all. that these two adults are having an affair. what do you do then? you know what you do then? you say there's no crime here. you know what? this is a witch hunt, or at the very least a fishing expedition, and guys, we fished long enough, no crime here, let's close up the case, box it up. you know, this is nobody's business but david petraeus'

wife. and it's not your job to tell david petraeus' wife. >> we've seen this time and again in washington and elsewhere. you know, these investigations take on a life of their own, they become exercises in self-justification and you don't want to -- it's very hard on a human level to say, oh, well, forget because people get invested in this. who was the responsible -- there was some moment where that decision either was made, which seems unclear to me, and then this leaks anyway. or it wasn't. and so -- where was that? and when it involves these people do you not go to the attorney general? >> and, by the way, i want to know when -- was the attorney general brought? in why did the attorney general know? when did the attorney general know it? is the fbi really conducting investigation of the cia director without the attorney general knowing that the fbi's conducting -- >> and the white house counsel. how could the white house counsel. >> the white house counsel has to know. and let me tell you something, i'm not going to say how i know

this, but let me tell you something, there are some people high up in official washington that knew about this. i know that personally they knew about it three, four weeks ago. they knew about this. and if they're -- if they knew about this three to four weeks ago, am i really to believe that the white house didn't know about this? nobody in the white house knew about this three to four weeks ago? >> i don't know which is worse. >> well, i don't know. and just for friends at home that are watching this home and say, well, gee, why are we so exercised about this? i'm exercised about this for two reasons. if this were a dod investigation of the cia, i'd go, it's messy, it's ugly. the fact is there was such tension between the fbi and cia historically, and they don't dislike each other, they hate each other, and there were fbi leaders allowing this to continue, it's scary. secondly, i hope the aclu and

other civil liberty organizations, people that get paid a lot of money from contributors to protect our civil liberties, i hope they're all over this. because this is about two adults. two consenting adults wit with e-mail accounts. and then -- mark, i just don't -- i don't understand how the fbi allowed this to go on the way they did. >> there's a lot of titillating aspects to this story that the tabloids and others are interested in. but the policy issues are really serious. >> i think the window of opportunity they had to go after him was that national security could have been implicated in some, way, shape or form, and that you can't deny. >> then you've got to tell the white house. >> exactly. >> if they believe that, they have to -- but congress needs to know what the attorney general knew, they need to know when the attorney general knew it, and why did the attorney general decide to do as far as keeping

the president, the white house in the dark? mueller, we need to know what director mueller knew, when did he know it? >> right. >> and all of his briefings with the president of the united states, when did he decide not to tell the president? i want to know when the fbi decided they needed to move this beyond the walls of the fbi after they found out there was no criminal activity. >> i sympathize with your concerns, but very carefully, i will say this is not just two adults. this is the head of the -- i mean, this is the man in charge -- so there were, unfortunately, once that door is opened, i don't know how you close it. >> well, you close it after you conclude -- >> i don't know -- >> after you conclude the investigation and you find out no crime is committed. that's when you close it. i think john's right, i think the original sin was the biggest. starting an investigation based on perhaps, perhaps, perhaps a romantic contest for david petraeus' -- >> there's nothing else that started that investigation except for e-mails that said i

saw what you were doing? >> half dozen e-mails. >> that's frightening. >> that's a big sin. but the other sin is at the end when they find out there is no criminal conduct here and then they decide to move it beyond the walls of the fbi. >> who is the -- again, to be as precise as possible, who is the supervisor of the shirtless fbi agent -- the shirtless fbi agent presumably has to come back to someone and say i'm now about to -- well, we don't know his name. he has to come back and say i propose opening up a cyber crimes investigation on the basis of what? who is the person that looks at that evidence and says, yes, you are now authorized to access this -- >> because of six e-mails. >> because of these e-mails. >> we don't know the total scope of the e-mails, but on the basis, it would seem to me the shirtless agent's boss, whoever has to approve that request, there's a big burden that should be on that person's shoulders tomorrow. >> and by the way, let's say right now that shirtless fbi

agent really should be words from an elvis costello -- coming up next, the former speaker of the house newt gingrich will be here onset. >> congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz, up next, jim vandehei with the politico playbook. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. lists all done. raise the roof! no one says that anymore, mom. [ woman ] raise the roof! ah? raise the roof! [ male announcer ] it's our biggest toy rollback of the year. find hundreds of rollbacks on the season's hottest toys in stores now, from america's gift headquarters, walmart. sven gets great rewards for his small business!

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so, which superfast 4g lte service would you choose, based on this chart ? don't rush into it, i'm not looking for the fastest answer. obviously verizon. okay, i have a different chart. going that way, does that make a difference ?

look at verizon. it's so much more than the other ones. so what if we just changed the format altogether ? isn't that the exact same thing ? it's pretty clear. still sticking with verizon. verizon. more 4g lte coverage than all other networks combined. the investigation is still going on, but already the tv specials about it are starting to hit the air. >> the cia rocked by scandal. its leader accused of sexual misconduct. threatening e-mails from the lover to another woman, a faithful wife scorned. is america's security at risk? find out tuesday on the next "jerry springer."

jerry springer, cia smackdown, 11:00 a.m. on wpix new york. >> wow. >> time now to take a look at the morning papers. the "wall street journal." a boom in shale oil will help the u.s. overtake saudi arabia as the world's largest oil producer by 2020. >> do you believe that? do you believe that? >> that's amazing. >> the top oil producer by 2020. it changes everything. >> by then, the u.s. is expected to produce 11 million barrels of oil a day, u.s. production peaked in 1970 at 9.5 million barrels a day. >> add to that the natural gas discoveries and energy suddenly becomes our strong suit moving forward. wow. >> that's much more -- and in the long-term, that's so much more important to national security than what we've been talking about. >> yeah. i would agree. >> it is shocking. from a parade of papers, the

"houston chronicle," less than a week from president obama's election, petition from texans to secede from the union. similar petitions have been filed on the white house website from a number of states from florida to oregon. the white house has promised any petition that gained more than 25,000 signatures would get serious going over. and way to be constructive, guys. the washington post, holiday shopping. >> it is. >> created a new term in the retail wars, black thanksgiving, big box stores like walmart, toys r us, and sears would open their doors at 8:00 in the evening on thanksgiving day instead of at midnight. retailers are trying to make the most of what could be an average at best shopping season. time to go to politico. >> don't you sit around at night watching football games or the first christmas show, like rudolph? >> yeah, it's family night, but then again, the economy needs it, so i'm not sure. >> did you see bobby jindal? >> yeah, saying what you said. let's go to the politico

playbook's executive editor jim vandehei. in the wake of mitt romney's loss, how are folks in the gop like jindal trying to reframe the party's agenda? using joe's words. >> well, good morning. bobby jindal called politico to offer his first thoughts on the election. and it's pretty interesting. he said the party has to stop being the stupid party and that they have to recalibrate pretty dramatically and stop being the party of big business, big wall street, big banks, big anything. and he said this dumbed down conservatism is killing the republican party. >> boy, i'll tell you what, man, that -- it's so great hearing him say that. of course, nicole wallace and i always were talking about, you know, nicole has said and i've repeated on this show all the time she said, let's stop having the debate on whether the conservative party or moderate party. let's stop being the stupid party. and i think jindal's right. and that's the thing that was so frustrating. why weren't we just as

suspicious of big banks and big corporations as we were big government? it set us up for a colossal failure this year, jim. >> and bobby jindal is not an insignificant player. he's the governor of louisiana, he's likely to run for the presidency in 2016. he's about to head the republican governor's association. and i'd say there's a lot of republicans. i feel like this election is more historically consequential than barack obama's first election. because it's the first time i can remember where a lot of very serious republicans are questioning their addiction to and reliance on very conservative media on being basically the party of mostly white, mostly male voters. and it's not just bobby jindal. you're seeing it across the board. people re-thinking about where are they on immigration? where are they on economic issues? how do they broaden the party to appeal to asians, hispanics, single women, gay voters. across the board, they got walloped in this categories.

bobby jindal is the most prominent to say what you've been saying. you'll see a lot more republicans echoing that message. >> it is about damn time, and i'll tell you what, there has been a strain of any intellectual strain in this party for a long time. you look at people that won the primary, some of these primary contests, or were ahead during the primaries in the presidential race. it was a joke. anger, rage, resentment, replaced ideology, replaced the working knowledge of government. >> well, i'll say something else about bobby jindal, he is one of the smartest in terms of pure policy, one of the smartest conservatives out there. >> no doubt. >> among governors. >> he's a brilliant guy and a good example of someone who could be the thing we talked about yesterday. someone who could be a modernizer of the republican party, but not a moderator. he's a very conservative guy and he's also a really smart guy and he can -- he could be very much on the front lines of coming up

with a forward-looking, but really deeply conservative vision of what the republican party could be. >> yeah. >> let me throw in another name. we had rand paul did an interview with us, as well. and rand paul who is very close to mitch mcconnell who runs the republican party in the senate. he told us he's going to start pushing for more lax marijuana laws, going to start pushing for a pathway to citizenship on illegal immigration. he said that this tea party conservatism that brought him power and some fame needs to recalibrate too and they need to use this libertarian strain to start to reach out to people in cities, in the northeast, they can't be a one-region party. again, it's not just bobby jindal, it's across the board where you have prominent, influential republicans re-thinking what it means to a republican. and that is, i think that is the one silver lining for the republican party from the results last week. >> by the way, jim, that's a

big, big silver lining. a big silver lining. this is a party, this wasn't a goldwater type wipeout. it was a couple of percentage points in the popular vote. you have a president whose campaign team was brilliant and they outmaneuvered the republicans tactically in nine states. no doubt, we were out of touch with voters on issues, but it was a huge tactical win for the white house, two percentage points. this wasn't a landslide, and if we recalibrate and stop listening to the conservative media complex or whatever david from called it, that's good news. >> one question is, if you use the dlc model of the democratic model after '84 trying to find a modernizing and moderate way forward, i think i'm right it was founded in '85. that took seven years, will it take that long for this rethinking to happen?

>> i think things happen a lot faster. >> jim vandehei, thank you very much. >> yeah. >> take care, have a good day. >> by the way, i saw somebody tweeted yesterday, tweeted the map as the democrats see it in 2016. i looked at that and i just retweeted save this. it's one of those things in the days after a big victory. that you look back and go, huh, okay, maybe we were a little overconfident. i always think about '92 and then the end of war room where they're all crying, we changed politics forever and two years later. '94 and then same thing with republicans, karl rove's permanent majority wasn't so permanent after all. >> or the '64 blowout landslide and '67 reagan wins. >> and the republicans dominate the white house for the next 20 years. steelers win in overtime, it comes with a heavy price, ben roethlisberger goes down with a shoulder injury, highlights from monday night football. more "morning joe" when we come back. americans believe they should be in charge of their own future.

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♪ good tuesday morning. welcome back to "morning joe." quick weather update to get you out the door. in new york city, cold front heading through, rain along with it, and falling temperatures.

but yesterday was beautiful, wasn't it? up and down the eastern sea board, temperatures will be falling throughout the day. you do need the umbrella heading outside many of the big cities. the green shows you the light rain. it's not heavy, but there's hit and miss showers from washington, d.c. all the way up through baltimore. and those will be through new york city, philadelphia, hartford, providence and boston and albany as we go throughout the next hour or two. remember, it's going to be much colder later today than it is this morning. temperatures out in buffalo and pittsburgh will sweep through the east. bundle up the kids, you'll need the hat and gloves as they come home from school later on today. morning rain this afternoon should be just fine. the areas that are plain cold which includes much of the country, look at the temperatures, cold all the way down to dallas this morning. we'll warm up with a good deal of sunshine. fall, cool, crisp afternoon from chicago to minneapolis all the way down to the southeast. just a little heads up. one thing i am watching about six to seven days from now, the possibility of another coastal wind and wave event monday into tuesday. more details on the effects on

sandy as the days approach. well, our new sports ca s well, our new sports ca por here at "morning joe." >> the steelers hosting the chiefs on monday night football, scoreless game in the first quarter. darts up the middle for a 12-yard touchdown run. that's the first time all year the chiefs have scored a touchdown in the first quarter. in the second quarter, ben roethlisberger pump fakes and throws one up to mike wallace who makes the one-handed grab for the touchdown. one more look at the terrific effort by wallace to bring it in with one hand and hang on to it with his legs. that ties the game at 10. third quarter, roethlisberger back to pass, the protection breaks down and he's sandwiched between two chief defenders, roethlisberger is -- what? what? he's out. for the game with an injury to -- >> putting all these kind of -- >> no, sources tell espn it's just a sprain.

but big ben undergoes further tests today. matt cassell throws into coverage and he's picked off by lawrence timmons. and that would set up the game-winning field goal. they lose their quarterback in the process. >> mika, by the way, i've got to say this weekend, a huge event, absolutely huge event. >> out of buffalo, new york. >> out of buffalo, new york. >> girls cross country. state champions again. got katelyn, hillary, courtney, and amelia, you guys are a great team, but i've got to tell you -- >> state champs again. >> it comes down to the coach, jim mitchell who is awesome, we all agree. and this is jim mitchell's 11th consecutive state championship. >> wow. dynasty. >> if you can imagine. >> the bronxville dynasty. >> courtney and amelia's fourth. if they get to five -- >> what's the school mascot?

>> what's that? >> the bronxville -- >> what's the school mascot? >> what are they called? >> what's the team called? >> the -- >> broncos. >> the bronxville broncos. >> i don't know, i think that's it. >> i've never seen a bronco in bronxville. >> i'm going to do some research. >> the team's amazing. they really are a great group of girls. jim mitchell builds them in every way as great people first and incredible runners. >> that's great. >> both you and jim -- >> we run. jim and amelia now, i can't keep up. >> jim's like her trainer. >> he is. he's into it. i'm trying to keep up with them. she actually thinks running with me is like walking. >> they are -- >> congratulations, girls. >> coming up next, we've got mika's must-read opinion pages. you're watching "morning joe."

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time now for the must-read opinion pages. i'm going to read richard cohen out of the "washington post." >> talk about a beautiful shot of that. can we go back to that shot? >> it's a gorgeous shot. >> look at that shot, you see the lincoln memorial in the background. >> thank you for that. >> that's gorgeous. >> god bless america. >> you know what? so cynical. you mock me. >> it's beautiful. >> richard writes for the -- how beautiful is that? >> beautiful. >> cynical. >> i'm not cynical. >> no, he's cynical. he's cynical. >> it's beautiful, it's fantastic, it's my hometown. >> that's why -- >> how's your dad doing? >> my dad, he's great, thank you for asking. >> we need to get him on the show. >> i know, we've got to do that. that'd be great. >> are you in town next week? >> what habit my dad?

>> i love your dad too. >> i'll try to book him. he's a tough booking. >> the game change dads. >> taught you how to roll one. >> and he knows a lot about -- >> that's actually true. >> why do -- >> as i'm looking at washington and you're talking about your hometown, i think original, i mean, i think immediately of your dad. all right. >> okay. >> american hero. >> what do you guys think of this? >> american hero. >> richard cohen, get petraeus back to work. is there a better man to fill petraeus' cia seat than petraeus himself? >> no. >> he is blackmail proof and more than qualified for the job. he not only was -- not only was a four-star general, a westpoint grad and a princeton scholar, but in the quite recent past he held the director's job himself. the united states would not only be getting the best man for the job but also striking a blow against sexual mccarthyism that has destroyed so many careers and in wretched silence has

aborted many political career before it's announced. i sat opposite of holly petraeus and can only imagine her hurt. but this is her matter. and her husband's, and not ours. he betrayed, not his country. no more need be said, now get back to work. >> jon meacham, you've written about thomas jefferson, our founding fathers that helped build this extraordinary republic. would not have survived in today's 24/7 media culture. >> well, there was an issue then. alexander hamilton was being blackmailed because of an extramarital affair, you know -- i love richard's point. i think that the sexual mccarthyism predates mccarthy in a lot of ways. but i do think one of the points of history in life is to learn and grow, so i think richard, there's a lot to say there.

did we learn nothing in the late 1990s but that we should value competence over private moral flaws? >> well -- >> what? >> well, we don't know all the facts. >> without in any way casting -- my instinct when i hear that clip from richard cohen is to say hear, hear. we are, you know, there's still a lot of facts we don't know. and one of the things that security clearances get based on as you know, joe, there's a clause in the documentation for how you, you know, give security clearances. people display consistent reckless behavior, they are considered problematic for security clearances. so we don't know exactly what david petraeus has done across the board. i'm not accusing him of anything, i'm saying there's a lot of fact pattern here that is still not known. and until we know the full scope of his behavior, it's hard to make a judgment as to whether he -- i mean, we only know a little slice. as of what we know right now, i'm all with richard cohen, but there's also a lot more facts

that are going to come out in the facts of this. >> how reckless was he? >> correct. >> mark, obviously, david petraeus, i think what richard speaks to is how effective so many believe david petraeus was. our lives are literally at risk every day. and we count on intelligence agencies to protect us, to protect our cities, to protect our subways, our bridges, to protect our children. and david petraeus is not a bad guy to have as the tip of the spear. >> to have somebody that smart when so much of the war on terror is prosecuted by the cia, to have someone from the pentagon with his background move over to the cia and head that was incredibly lucky for the country because there are few other people who could've made that change, survived moving from one tough bureaucracy to another and be such a great intellectual and forward-thinking person about how to protect the united states. >> the other part of this, obviously, is petraeus' legacy

in afghanistan, and being the author of the book on counterinsurgency in a literal sense, to what extent was the implications of that doctrine of the policy decisions that he was part of running up to this are going to be ultimately much, much more important going forward than any -- i think than to go to john's point, who knows what this is. but right now, we should also be having a pretty healthy debate about when we switched from counterterror to counterinsurgency over there. >> yeah. still ahead, newt gingrich also chair of the dnc debbie wasserman schultz, more "morning joe" in a moment. [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with a low national plan premium...

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the dramatic fall from grace of one of the most respected military men of this generation. >> please don't be captain america. please don't be captain america. >> one of the most respected military men of this generation. cia director and retired four-star general david petraeus stepped down friday after admitting to an extramarital affair. >> it was captain america. >> top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." mark haleprin and jon meacham are still with us. meacham is out with the new book. >> great book. >> that's a good book.

where's my copy, meacham, you gave joe one. >> i want to point out, again, thomas jefferson sent no inappropriate e-mails. >> are you like my dad? are you going to make me buy it? yeah. okay. i got ya. >> brzezinski family values. >> yes, he makes me buy his books. >> does he really? >> he does. >> those are old country values. >> joining us in a moment will be another historian, former speaker of the house newt gingrich. he's co-author of the new book "victory at yorktown." he'll be here in just a moment. but first, we want to begin with developing news in the general david petraeus scandal. the investigation now involves the top commander in afghanistan. general john allen is being investigated for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. kelley is the woman who reportedly received those threatening e-mails from paula broadwell, david petraeus' biographer with whom petraeus is said to have an affair.

general allen took over military command in afghanistan from general petraeus after petraeus was tapped for the cia. wow. now officials are reviewing up to 30,000 pages of communications between allen and ms. kelley. although it's not clear if the e-mails involved sexual material or classified information. overnight in charlotte, north carolina, fbi agents searched the home of paula broadwell, seen leaving the home with boxes, suitcases, and photographs. new details, meanwhile, continue to emerge about the fbi's handling. >> so i wonder -- we've talked about judges offering warrants. i wonder what judge offered a warrant to go in there -- >> it's consent. >> this is consensual. >> yes, the fbi agent who launched the initial investigation was later pulled off the case due to inappropriate behavior, including allegedly sending

shirtless photos of himself to jill kelley. >> that was sent before the investigation began. jill kelley went to him after receiving the shirtless photos about this complaint. >> and jill kelley is a friend of the petraeus family. that agent apparently grew concerned the investigation into the harassing e-mails had stalled. and contacted a member of congress. even though the white house reportedly was still unaware of the case. chair of the senate intelligence committee senator dianne feinstein says she's growing more concerned as this story unfolds. >> generally what we call the four corners, the chair and ranking both committees are briefed on operationally sensitive matters. this is certainly an operationally sensitive manner. but we weren't briefed. i don't know who made that decision. and i think, you know, that makes it that much more difficult. this thing came so fast and so hard and since then it's been like peeling an onion.

every day, another peel comes off and you see a whole new dimension to this. so my concern has actually escalated over the last few days. >> mika, this just doesn't add up. >> i -- i just get the feeling there's a whole other story going on here. that this is just the periphery. >> something's way off here, mark. >> look, it's rare that everyone in elite political media circles has the same feeling, but that's going on right now. and that leaves aside the timing of election day and benghazi factor. those two issues, which were so white hot in the first moments of this have been overshadowed by the drum beat of revelations. but those things are going to come back into play and may not be -- there may not be caus causality, but the timing is going to come back into this. i guarantee it.

and let's remove benghazi and election day from that, we've been focusing more on the beginning of the investigation. but, again, you just wonder how the fbi continues this investigation from -- through one wall after another wall after another wall. and it continues. it just doesn't add up. the fact that, again, people in washington social circles are talking about this. >> yeah. >> and yet, we're supposed to believe that nobody in the white house didn't know this? did the attorney general know this? if the attorney general knew this, he certainly should've told white house counsel about this. >> well, you would think whenever the phrase cia director and inappropriate and fbi investigation, were all those words. >> and harassment and threatening. >> that's before we get to shirtless. when all those phrases are in one paragraph, you -- it would seem you would have some sort of protocol for -- >> especially considering that david petraeus was the

president's most important asset in his war on terror. the drone strikes, remember the "new york times" article where the president would be handed a list of suspects and he picked the ones that we were going to kill with drone attacks. that comes from the cia. that comes from david petraeus. he and petraeus were working hand in hand on this war on terror and mueller knows this. the fbi knows this. >> well -- >> the attorney general knows this. >> well, presumably. that's -- >> what i'm saying, they know that david petraeus is the key asset, the cia director. >> in their understandable privacy concerns about -- if, in fact, they decided there was nothing here, you know, at what point do you limit it? does that still apply? if you're talking about, again, the cia director, his whole other question. one of the things mark and i were talking about a little earlier was there doesn't seem to be an explanation of why there was a month gap reportedly

between the going to ms. broadwell and then going to petraeus. there was some -- i think there's some delay there. so the time line of this investigation and the responsible chain of command are fascinating questions. >> let's peel back the curtain, though, a little bit. these stories now are being driven by very chatty people. you've got law enforcement people, military people, intelligence people, private lawyers for some of the people involved being extraordinarily chatty. you can imagine information being shut down. the chattiness doesn't necessarily mean they're all being accurate and honest and full. you're seeing stories that don't have reportedly or allegedly -- but at some point, people are start to pick at these accounts and find they're not totally consistent and in some cases self-serving. things being told about who knew what when, the accounts aren't going to add up because people are telling reporters things to try to control the story rather than to really put out a complete story.

>> and again, and the question -- and we're going to figure this out. but when did ericho holder, the attorney general, eric mueller know about this? why did they breakthrough all these walls after they found out there was no national security issue being handled. they continued the investigation, continued to breakthrough one wall after another wall after another wall. >> and he steps down. >> and we're hearing nobody in the white house knows about this and yet people in washington social circles know about this. come on. >> yeah. >> this does not add up. >> for the first time, secretary of defense leon panetta who previously served as director of the cia weighed in about general david petraeus' sudden resignation. during a flight to australia, reporters asked if general petraeus could be prosecuted if it's determined he was having an affair while on active duty in the military. >> you know, i don't know. i don't know the answer to that. i guess i'm reading the papers like you are to determine just,

you know, what the committee finds out, what the ultimate investigation determines on that issue. we obviously are going to watch this closely to determine just exactly, you know, when that took place. >> panetta also appeared to side with lawmakers who say the fbi should've informed them about the investigation sooner. >> that's another issue i think we ought to look at. as a former director of the cia and, you know, having worked very closely with the intelligence committees, you know, i believe that there is a responsibility to make sure that the intelligence committees are informed of issues that could affect, you know, the security of those intelligence operations. >> all right. joining us now, former speaker of the house, newt gingrich, the co-author of the new book "victory at yorktown," a novel and now what we have on the set

is a battle of the historians. >> battle of the historians, t.j. versus yorktown. and your guy was, what? >> thomas jefferson was a struggling -- struggling with his reputation as being not a very effective wartime governor of virginia, which was a searing experience and one which stuck with him the rest of his life. >> we're going to get to this. two quick questions to ask you, obviously, about what is going on. >> what is your reaction to the latest with general petraeus? everything that has happened? >> well, i think it gets more and more bizarre. >> it is extremely bizarre. >> i learned this morning they had apparently months of looking at this? >> yeah. >> and they hadn't notified the congress, hadn't notified the secretary of defense, hadn't notified the president. had they notified petraeus? >> right. >> and dianne feinstein says she's finding out last week on news accounts? >> yeah, i think the fbi's going to be on the griddle about this. and of course, it makes the

bengha benghazi investigation a little bit more complicated. petraeus will testify, hillary will testify, they won't be able to dance around that. >> do you think he should've stepped down? >> i think in a national security slot that's that important, it's really hard to maintain authority, and i think that he probably was correct to just drop out, focus on his family for a little while, try to sort this out. i think he does have a future. he's a tremendously talented, very patri patriotic person. i think it would have eaten away at him to stay at the cia given the nature of washington today. >> let's talk about the republican party, our republican party. 1994, we've enjoyed lows, 2006 and then 2012. and, you know, i was thinking about -- i remember joe gaylord telling me that one of the points for him, 1974. can we compare 2012 in terms of

shock? >> no, i think in terms of shock, yes. >> how about 198 -- >> how about, i wrote a piece for politico that every republican leader should stop and learn and think for a while. i mean, to watch -- i was wrong. i was totally wrong a week ago. karl rove was wrong, michael barron, one of the people i most respect in this business was wrong. we need to stop and say -- and i just talked to someone in the romney campaign yesterday who said privately he honestly went into tuesday night, this particular person, absolutely thinking they were going to win. >> david axelrod has friends in the romney campaign that told them they were sure they were going to win on election night. >> if your model is that wrong, maybe you better take a deep breath, take some time -- i'm going to do a personal report on this. i think it'll take four to six months. i think -- it's not just the demographics, not just the vote, but it's the campaign strategy. i think the republican consultant model is profoundly wrong. >> the consultants, the

republican consultants in washington have been driving this party into the ground since you left. >> and he had a very provocative piece in the "washington post" in response to this. and i think he really has a pretty good grip on when you have a 7% more democratic electorate, which was what we had on election day, clever campaigns are not going to win. >> no. >> and you've got to ask yourself, how do you get party consultants rather than campaign consultants and how do you get guys who are paid for winning not paid for processing? you look at the losing senate races, the guys placing the tv ads did just fine. >> i wonder how much the guys in linda mcmahon's race up in connecticut made losing two seats we could've won. chris would've won that race. saying -- i mean same thing with rob simmons a couple of years ago. it's disturbing. i want to go back, though, and

there's not one defining moment, but i remember you getting hammered on illegal immigration, rick perry getting hammered on illegal immigration. how devastating was it that mitt romney decided he had to lurch as far right as possible? >> it was a disaster. >> how disastrous for us? >> it was a disaster in part. if you say to yourself. and i remember standing there during the debate when romney went after me on this, and you say to yourself, do you have any idea what that's going to look like as a 30-second ad? and of course, romney did worse with asian-americans than he did with latinos. and the reason was pretty simple. the obama message was after they get done deporting them, they're coming for you. so he literally did -- nobody's picked this up yet, but we used to carry the asian-american vote. we've managed in 12 years to totally throw it away. it's almost inconceivable we would do as badly as we did with latinos. the obama campaign began advertising on univision, i

think in early may. and i said one-third of the republican effort should have been in the latino community. if you have a zone that's going to make or break you, you better figure out how to carry it or it'll break you. that was a significant part of where we are. and the republicans are going to have to come to grips with immigration. and how do you deal in a humane way with grandmothers? i deliberately use that imagery because it personifies -- you can't say to somebody i really would like to get your vote over jobs, by the way, we're kicking your grandmother out. it doesn't work. >> a bit of a mixed message, isn't it? >> yeah. >> my goodness. >> i'm going to ask you to weigh in on one aspect of the president's record now and going forward is obama care. there's some disagreement in the party. should governors, republican governors, republican members of congress accept it and help implement it, tell them how to take advantage of the new programs? or should the party continue to fight it? >> a, it's going to survive, he

won the election. he's not going to preside over the repeal of obama care. b, it's not going to work. you're already seeing, for example, major chains in restaurants saying we're hiring everybody for 29 hours. >> would you tell rick scott and rick perry to work to implement this? >> no, i'd tell them to look out what's best for their state. if they think it's best for their state to implement it, implement it, if they'd rather not be involved, they should have a hard-nose look at what's best for their state. i do want to say -- there are two mandates out of this election. i mean, no house republican should be bamboozled into this idea that the only person who has a mandate is barack obama. the house republicans have a mandate, it's fundamentally different than obama's mandate and they ought to learn a lesson from tip o'neill. o'neill scheduled a vote, he said we're going to have a democratic alternative, and if

you can get the vote, mr. president, you can pass the alternative. but it's your problem to get the votes. and boehner would be well put not to try to cut a deal with obama but instead to say paul ryan's going to bring a solution to the fix, we're going to gather votes for it. i guarantee you, you'll get the right to have a democratic substitute. and if you can get enough republicans to vote for it, terrific. but they do not have an obligation to concede that the only mandate in washington is the president's. >> you're talking about chains hiring people for 29 hours. i'm hearing that from small business owners across pensacola. >> yeah. >> my own district. on election night i got three different e-mails from small business owners going it's sad -- and i said this on the air a couple days ago. they said i'm going to have to put these people on for less than 30 hours and i'm going to lose my best people. i can choose to do that or fire six, seven people because my margins are so small i'm fighting to keep my business open. >> you track the number of layoffs and closures in the first week since the election, it's sobering.

and part of the reason we wrote "victory of yorktown" is say to people, this is a tough country. he goes home to mt. vernon for one week out of eight years. okay. we lost an election. we also won the house. we have 30 governorships, we have several thousand state legislators. now let's pick ourselves up, spend six months learning what went wrong, get back in the game, and attempt to give the american people an alternative. >> mika. >> all right. let's talk about the book then. and your co-author , and tell u about the basis of the book and how it competes with meacham's book. >> it does not compete with meacham's book. but this is our third volume about washington. and it's based on the premise that this is the man on whom the whole country stands. in a variety of ways, from winning the war to being the person around whom we built the presidency to presiding over the

constitutional convention. it's impossible to imagine america emerging as it did without washington. and in this case, at yorktown, people forget, we were exhausted. we had survived, the british hadn't won, but we hadn't won either. washington is sitting right outside new york. he doesn't have the forces to get into new york city, the british with the royal navy are sitting on the city. washington takes two great gambles. one is he takes about a third of his army, sends it south and they fight a series of battles in south carolina, north carolina, virginia. gradually weaken his army. two more victories like this and my army will be gone. ultimately he retreats to yorktown on a peninsula expecting the royal navy to save him. in the meantime the french knna send a signal, they're prepared. the french navy says we're

prepared to follow your leadership. washington then basically confuses the british, has them thinking he's still sitting here, takes his army plus the french army, marches through philadelphia. remember, pre-helicopter, pre-airplane, this is a huge gamble. you're going to march and carry cannon and it's a big mission and his gamble is that the french navy will arrive in time, they will seal it off, that he will have to surrender. i've always loved the fact that when he surrenders the band plays "the world turned upsidedown." and it's the beginning of the end of the british domination. they concede that having lost the army they're not going to be able to win the war. >> jon? >> what could've changed the outcome? you think about these things. what is the -- >> look, each of our books has a frightening moment. in 1776, on christmas day, washington's army has deserted down to 2,500 men, getting

beaten since september. a third of his 2,500 men have no boots, marching with burlap bags wrapped around their feet, leave a trail of blood. if he doesn't decide to cross the ice-filled delaware at night, march nine miles in the dark and surprise a professional german unit at trenton and win that battle, it's conceivable the whole thing would've collapsed in two more weeks. he said to his generals, none of whom wanted to do it. said it's too big of a risk. he said, guys, we're losing ground at such a rate if we don't win a victory, the army will be gone in three more weeks. then the revolution will be over, and when the revolution's over, they're going to hang us. so we have nothing to risk. this is all upside. the second one is at valley by the way as a study of congressional incompetency, read the continental congress, it's unbelievable. supposed to have all sorts of

supplies, they have one ax. so in the middle of this tough winter, barely surviving, van stueben arrives, and without that intervention, we never would've beaten the british. we never get beaten after. and what if the french hadn't shown up? what if yorktown had been a disaster? we might well have collapsed our morale -- we were really exhausted after seven years of war. >> you've written a lot of books, some novels and some history, why do this as a novel rather than history? >> we want to get inside washington's head. we have a passion, all three are ph.d.s in history. we really are worried about the degree to which teaching history has collapsed. and as you know, two new children books out the elephant teaches 4 to 8-year-olds history. a land of the pilgrim's pride is the newest one about the

colonial america and "sweet land of liberty." how do we get people interested in history? and we think sometimes in novels you can get people inside people's minds, inside the emotions and bring it to life in a way that leads them to go on to read books that are nonfiction. >> speaker gingrich, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. good to see you again. >> thanks a lot. and great to see calista, as well. >> maybe we can take another picture. we keep putting it on the air. you can read an excerpt on our blog -- >> she's very proud of her t-shirt. >> i'm proud of her. i think she's my favorite student. >> more than me. >> another landslide. >> right. >> easy vote. >> i'm proud of my "b" plus. best grade i've ever gotten. up next, the rapidly shrinking inner circle. what would it mean for the president to be without some of his most trusted advisers in the second term? also the editor of "newsweek"

tina brown is here. watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] when a major hospital wanted to provide better employee benefits while balancing the company's bottom line, their very first word was... [ to the tune of "lullaby and good night" ] ♪ af-lac ♪ aflac [ male announcer ] find out more at... [ duck ] aflac! [ male announcer ] ...forbusiness.com. [ yawning sound ]

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the first tax rates expire on december 31st. rates are going up for everyone if nothing happens. if you think republicans can win a showdown on preserving all the tax rates against a president who was just elected on raising rates on billionaires, well, good luck. i prefer this as a policy outcome, i don't think it's winnable. i think at the end, republicans will cave. what were the four fastest years of economic growth? '83 to '86, what were the top marginal tax rates? 50%. obviously 39% by itself is not going to cripple the economy. >> welcome back to "morning joe," beautiful look at the

white house at 27 past the hour. joining the table, tina brown. >> good morning. >> "newsweek's" latest issue on the obama conquest. with us from washington, managing editor of the hill bob cusack who is here to discuss two of their big front page stories, as well. bob, good to have you onboard. >> good morning. >> why don't we start with the key advisers poised to leave team obama. fill us in. >> yeah, team obama looks to be breaking up. a lot of president obama's senior advisers are expected to depart, david plouffe, jim messina, as well as david axelrod going back to chicago to work on politics institute. so the president's going to have a new team. and a lot of people say that's healthy just because, you know, second terms, especially recently have had basically some jinxes. so you want to bring people some fresh people on. also jack lui could be moving over to the treasury department to replace tim geithner. so the president's going to have

a new team and a lot of people will say that is a good thing because you need some fresh. these guys are so tired. >> all right. the other hill headline, norquist pledge takes election hit. i consider that good news. is it good news for republicans, actually? >> well, that's part of what the gop is going through. the soul searching of thinking about the glove pledge hasn't helped them. and obviously now, it's such a different position for republicans after president obama's victory in 2009, republicans fought. they fought the stimulus, fought the health care. now it's a more conciliatory tone with this fiscal cliff. and the grover pledge republicans say privately gets in the way of that. now a majority of the congress has not signed the pledge because of republican losses as well as we talk to some incoming republicans in the house and they haven't signed it. they don't want to be tied down. and these aren't centrists, incoming members, these are conservatives. grover says eventually some of these guys will sign it after

they've served in congress, but it's part of the republican party kind of reassessing things. >> i'll ask you to overgeneralize, we had speaker gingrich who says things aren't so bad, we just need to recalibrate a little bit. as you talk to republicans, capitol hill, strategists and big thinkers, are there more people saying we need some tweaks or more people saying we need to rebuild from the ground up? >> i think it's more of a significant revamp. especially when you're talking about immigration reform. i mean, you talk about the dream act, scale back bill that was voted on in the house in 2010. only eight republicans voted iffifor the dream act and only two of them serve in congress, and now republicans are talking about doing comprehensive immigration reform as well as rethinking this tax pledge. i think it goes right at their core. i think they're seeing a significant redirection of the party. >> all right. let's go to tina brown now. i'll give you a choice, the obama conquest, lucky general or master of the game?

you want to answer the question? or should we talk about general petraeus? >> how can we resist talking about general petraeus. you know, this whole thing has turned into the most wild steamy complex soap opera that it's just unbelievable. i mean every day a fresh detail, you know, emerges. now we have general allen in the mix. it's almost -- you've got these two women, the brunette bombshell of the high command kelley and the well-toned paula broadwell, with the counterinsurgent smile. it's becoming insane by the minute. i think it's a tragedy to lose petraeus, i do. i think the guy's so stellar and so honorable and so, you know, so important right now. >> it's also a tragedy for all of the families involved. and i wonder would the reporters you have working on "newsweek" and "the daily beast," has anything come across your desk that really questions national security? that really brings this to the

forefront beyond salaciousness? >> not yet. not yet. and in fact, michael daily today has a reading on some of those e-mails from broadwell to kelley. and actually, they're not even really sexual in nature. much more about, hey, you, stop going around the base, take it down a notch. and the notion this kind of stuff is really impacting on something as important as the director of the cia is really incredibly awful. but one of the things i think is some people aren't thinking about with regard to the tragedy for families and so on too of all of this. heroes summit, which we're hosting tomorrow in washington where we're having an extraordinary group of national security people and military vets discussing issues of character and courage and so on, is the impact on families, of long-term deployment. and that is actually true of the high command as well as it is of the, you know -- >> absolutely. >> here was petraeus deployed for so many years, and i think it's very difficult for

marriages to kind of, you know, stay really, really intact when -- >> and that is the honest conversation, actually. when it comes to stories like this which i know have caused a lot of people to crack jokes and caused for a lot of crazy headlines, but not only is this a tragedy for the families involved, for the kids involved, for everybody involved because it's not just the generals at this point. it's the women involved and their families, as well. but also the impact of these long-term and repeat tours of duty on marriages. >> absolutely. >> and the men come home and they're very dislocated and they're very, you know, out of sync with their families and out of sync with their wives and marriages and i'm sure that has played a role in general petraeus' affair with broadwell. he was away a long time. and that couldn't have helped issues at all. and the same is true of general allen. you know, it's really a tragic business, the whole thing. i hope that petraeus, you know,

has a short penance and returns in some big situation. we can't lose him in this way. you and you keep seeing the icons bite the dust. and it's like these alpha people are just suddenly kind of swept out of the arena of their, you know, terrific competence. and i think that's a tragedy. >> all right. also in "newsweek," the question about whether president obama's the lucky general or master of the game and explain to us the focus of the story. >> sort of moving from the unlucky general -- >> yes, who knew that generals wither going to be such an issue this week. really examines that charge in a sense that obama's always been about luck. he even became a senator in illinois out of luck because his opponent was mad in scandal. there have been many times when it seems as if obama has been saved by the gaunt. he was in a bad trajectory after the debate and hurricane sandy

happened and suddenly he was thrust into a very presidential spotlight that made him look better. but what concludes at the end, yes, he has had elements of luck in his career, but this is really about opportunity meeting preparation. and you have to make your luck, you know. willing to be lucky. obama is very, very brilliant, i think, at making his own luck by preparation and as you saw that with osama bin laden, that was long, long in the preparation. long in the preparation. and as we saw in the analysis of the campaign which he writes about. the fact they were able to destroy in a sense romney's reputation early on that they put that money early on -- that was a great campaign strategy for them and it worked. >> bob cusack, how is the hill looking at the president's win? >> well, i think it's interesting that the president, you know, after he won his first term, he went to republicans when they were getting into a dispute behind closed doors and he said i won. it was a pushback at republicans at the time.

you're not seeing that tone now. obviously they've got to strike a deal on the fiscal cliff. and i think that is of note. and republicans have noticed that. and that's why we're actually seeing some unity for now. i don't think there's going to be any kind of deal this week as congress comes back, but as we get into december and the markets get jittery, possibly, you'll see some type of deal on the fiscal cliff. >> do you imagine a deal that doesn't include both sides getting in the way, both have been publicly flogged for not giving over the past few years. >> it's true, i think obama now holds a better poker hand. a much better poker hand. and he's -- you know the voters have spoken and he's not saying -- he's not giving. here we have people like bob corker of tennessee going on fox news on sunday no less saying he cannot imagine giveback on taxes at this minute is really extraordinary. you're seeing a cracking in a sense of that party line. and why are we going to go to

the map over taxes for a bunch of people who many of whom voted for obama anyway and are millionaires that we don't care. so it's very interesting to see that change in mood. >> all right. as tina mentioned earlier, "the daily beast" and "newsweek" will be launching the hero summit later this week. >> we have aaron sorkin -- >> not bad. >> you're just a little busy, tina. for more information, go to the dailybeast.com. and the new issue of "newsweek" on the obama conquest is out now. thank you, tina brown, great to see you. bob cusack, we'll be reading your top stories online at thehill.com. >> u.s. congresswoman from florida and chair of the democratic national committee debbie wasserman schultz. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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petraeus wouldn't turn over the nuclear plans, and then his paramore turned on him. perhaps some kind of chase with mini coopers and man with saws

with hands. is that how they found out about this? >> law enforcement and multiple u.s. officials tell nbc news that e-mails between him and paula broadwell, his biographer were indicative of an extramarital affair. >> really? e-mail? all they had to do to have america's spy master general was to log on to his e-mail? any way we can intrigue that little sound bite up a little bit? >> law enforcement and multiple u.s. officials tell nbc news that e-mails between him and paula broadwell, his biographer, were indicative of an extramarital affair. >> how exciting. >> looking ahead to tomorrow, we'll talk to senator dick durbin, actress and director penny marshall, and film director oliver stone. up next, dnc chair debbie

wasserman schultz joins the table. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this is steve.

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it is 46 past the hour. >> you can stop that now. >> yeah, it's disturbing, actually. >> no, no, no -- >> you're scaring debbie. >> she's giggling. >> it's -- >> that's nervous laughter. she'd rather not be there. >> let's see the dance again. >> see what i mean? >> with us now, mika, who do we have? >> democratic representative from florida and chairwoman of the democratic national convention, congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz. committee, yes. good to have you onboard. >> good to be here. >> maybe you can speak better

than me, i'm half asleep. >> mark haleprin has the first question. >> all right. a lot of questions about nancy pelosi and whether she will continue on as your leader. will she or won't she? >> you know, i think that's probably the hottest question in the capitol right now. but personally if you ask me, i would be shocked if she left. you know, would really surprise me if she stepped aside. nancy pelosi is someone who absolutely loves to be part of the architecture of big major decisions, the big issues. we wouldn't have health care reform without barack obama and nancy pelosi. and with the fiscal cliff issues and the big economic decisions we're going to be making it would be hard for me to imagine she walks away. plus, you know, we had a successful election and we've got a job to finish. so just knowing her, that's my gut feeling. >> did you guys have a successful election? because -- >> you mean in the house? >> yeah, obviously the president won big, the senate won big, but the republicans are still in

charge of the house. >> yeah, they are. but, look, i think if you look at -- if this election were not right after redistricting, and if you did not have the massive infusion of the super pac money into these house races, that's where superpac money is able to have the most disproportionate in the race. you can really make an impact if you dump $2 million into a race, you know, at the last minute. harder, obviously, to affect the senate race or presidential election, but between the republicans all across the country, they took over many, many state legislatures, redistricted most of the maps to their favor, and then add super pac money. and so i think that was more a factor in the outcome. i think we would have -- i would think we would've won the majority if not for those two factors. >> can we talk about the rise of women in washington? how exciting is this? >> absolutely. >> a lot of new names including

elizabeth warren. >> heidi heitkamp. >> i have a question not skewed at all. >> it's skewed. >> not meant to be an insult to men at all. if it was just women in washington, how quickly would we solve the fiscal cliff? >> do you know how often women in congress talk about that? >> i'm serious. there's interesting data about how women and -- sort of work to solve problems. >> build consensus, put aside petty differences. >> about how you're basically better than us? >> we don't do a lot of chest beating. >> chest thumping. >> mika, remember in 2010, that was the first time since 1982 that we actually lost -- we went down in the number of women serving in congress. and one election later, we have a record number of women serving. 20 members of the u.s. senate, 78 members in the house of representatives. women are now not just firmly

established in the leadership of this country, but now as the longer and more seniority women gain, the more -- the more of a going to have in the significant decisions made. >> and john heilemann when you get men and women together, women have the men like a puppet show. sorry. >> on the question of the fiscal cliff, a lot of liberals, paul krugman and others on the left are saying there is no fiscal cliff. it would be crazy for us to go for a big deficit reduction deal. you're hearing this loudly starting to echo in quarters of the democratic party. it sounds to me like on the basis of what we were talking about off camera that you disagree with that and we need to do a big deal. >> look, there isn't anyone out there in the grassroots, which we just came through an election in which there were tens of thousands of doors knocked on,

phone calls. what i heard all across the country as i traveled on behalf of president obama is that whether you're a liberal or conservative, people are clamoring for us to come together, to work together, and to move our economy forward. and people do not think that we should have massive defense cuts and massive discretionary cuts and that we have to focus on making sure we add solvency to medicare, deal with social security, which is not in crisis so we have more time to deal with that. i mean, we'll be in our 80s by the time there's -- we're upside-down in social security and we have to be responsible about the approach we take. we have to deal with it. >> medicare, though, obviously medicare and medicaid are the two big -- >> yeah, but we've shown we can add years of solvency like we did -- well, you can continue to focus on making sure that around the margins we deal with cracking down on waste, fraud and abuse. we've already in the last year and a half -- >> that doesn't mean anything. >> it sure does, joe. >> it doesn't.

fraud and abuse, seriously? >> taking the $17 billion in savings and plowing it into waste, fraud and abuse, in the last two years we went from -- >> the savings went in to start a new entitlement program called obama care. >> no, what it it did, it took that money and we not only made sure that we cracked down on waste, fraud and abuse, in the last two years we've doubled the amount that we've collected in fraudulent payments, $10 billion plus. in part. not completely. >> how else do we do it? >> well, we have to take a comprehensive look at making sure that we are not -- we've looked at fraud. we've looked at waste, and we're going to have to come together. i'm not going to give a prescription here on the air, but we have to come together and build consensus around what you can do to add the solvency. >> back to the question you didn't answer which i asked, you think that -- >> i did answer. >> you said you thought we should avoid the fiscal cliff

and everyone agrees on that. my question is whether you think -- what you think the long-term deficit reduction is a priority going forward? >> yes, it is. if you misunderstood my answer, yes, it is a high priority. we should engage in long-term deficit reduction. but focusing on jobs and getting the economy turned around is the number one priority. we also have to deal with deficit reduction and the fiscal cliff is an immediate issue to take on. >> do you want to stay on as it dnc chair? will you stay on as dnc chair? >> i'm not focused on that right now. we've got a lot of decisions. i'm focused on -- >> raising the retirement age, i'm just asking, is it -- is it something that needs to be -- is it one of the many things that needs to be talked about? >> i don't think so. i think we can take a look at there's a lot of different approaches you can take. i'm not someone that believes that significant benefit cuts or taking people out of their eligibility for medicare is the right way to go. >> so final question, how do you

soldier on over the next two years without allen west by your side in congress? >> well, i'll try to find a way to deal with it. >> congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz, thank you so much. we're back in just a moment. into their work,

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coming up next -- >> are you tweeting that? >> no. >> what? >> the fbi drops by the home of paula broadwell, the woman involved in the alleged affair with cia director david t petraeus. this as the investigation now sweeps up the top american commander in afghanistan as well. >> does this involve the fbi agent without the shirt? is this the shirtless agent? >> it's all very sad. >> [ male announcer ] this is bob,

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. as you take a live look at new york city's time to wake up, everybody. back with us on set we have mark halperin, john heilemann and jon meacham. the developing news in the general david petraeus scandal. >> there's another general -- >> an allegation involving the top commander in afghanistan. general john allen is being investigated for alleged inappropriate communications with jill kelley. >> seriously? is it like a club? >> apparently. >> did he send topless pictures also? >> we don't yet. she is the woman who reportedly received the threatening e-mails from paula broadwell, david petraeus' biographer. >> allegedly on that. >> with whom petraeus is said to have had had an affair. general allen took over military command in afghanistan from general petraeus after petraeus

was tapped for the cia. now officials are reviewing up to 30,000 pages of communication. >> let's stop right now. >> between allen and miss kelley. >> 30,000? is. >> stipulate it was a very big fund like 18 points. >> almost as big -- >> do we have that number right? i mean, come on. >> so hold on one second. i'm not really good -- >> my eyes are bad. >> i think i've proven this. not good at math. let's talk to a guy who went to harvard. >> okay, right, true. >> you get two years -- >> you're running a war. you're running a war, first of all. the most important war, decade long are war. you have to bring it to a close. a lot of stuff is going on, the t taliban blowing people up. let's work with afghans, they are turning guns on you. you have to focus. let's say you send 30,000 e-mails over a two-year time

period, what does that break down to per day? >> you don't know what the time period was. >> yes, we do. it's 2010 through 2012, 3,000 e-mails over that two-year time period. >> well -- >> pages. pages of e-mails. >> he's doing the math. okay. >> i can do this much math, that's 15,000 a year. >> when did he leave centcom? >> he hasn't left yet. he's up for promotion right now. i don't know these things. >> what number are we trying to come up with? >> he sent 30,000 pages of e-mails to this woman. >> i don't think that's actually clear. what they said that's the number of documents they've looked at. >> it could be to attachments. >> they could have looked at all of her e-mail and all the e-mail he sent to everyone. this could be the total e-mail volume the two of them sent to everyone. >> does this make you feel better -- it's not clear if the e-mails involved sexual material or classified information.

>> sent out many e-mails. >> if it were over two years, 30,000 e-mails between them, that would be 41.09 e-mails a day. >> that's why we have a pulitzer prize winning -- >> that's not unreasonable. >> there's one report that suggests one included an atta attachment of a draft manuscript of your book. that takes a lot of pages. >> that takes care of 29,000 pages. >> i withdraw my calculator. >> general allen says he has done nothing wrong. fbi agents searched the home of paula broadwell the agents were seen leaving the home with boxes, suitcases and photographs. new details, meanwhile, continue to emerge about the fbi's handling of the case. meanwhile, officials tell nbc news and "the wall street journal" the agent who launched the initial investigation was later pulled off the case due to inappropriate behavior including allegedly sending shirtless photos of himself to jill kelley, also a friend of the e

petraeus family. >> it is important for context that the shirtless picture of the fbi agent was sent to jill kelley before the investigation began. >> that agent apparently -- >> and she went to this agent after -- you want an fbi agent who sends you a shirtless photo -- >> a shirtless photos are a predicate -- and the good news about the shirtless photos, they'll make a coffee table book about this thing all that much better. >> anthony weiner was one of them and then there was that republican guy. you think about -- >> your boss. >> this is why we only remember him -- >> these are all ultimately -- >> this woman seems to have had a very wide social network. >> this woman -- >> she knows a lot of people in the military and the fbi. >> or is limited to commanders of centcom. >> she knew this fbi agent somehow. she had some kind of relationship. she is a hostess, right?

had that's what she does. she hosts military related events in tampa. >> yes, she does. >> that's an interesting -- >> gives shirtless photos and -- >> nice job description. >> christopher lee was the congressman. >> thank you. >> that agent we were talk iing about apparently grew concerned, the investigation into the harassing e-mails -- >> do you mean the one without his shirt? >> the shirtless agent. >> so he's concerned. >> and -- >> the shirtless agent is concerned. >> and contacted a member of congress even though the white house was still up aware of the case. the chair of the senate intelligence committee, senator dianne feinstein, says she is growing more concerned as this story unfolds. >> generally the four corners, the chair and rankings of both committees, are briefed on operationally sensitive matters. this is certainly an operationally sensitive matter. but we weren't briefed.

i don't know who made that decision. and i think, you know, that makes it much more difficult. this thing just came so fast and so hard, and since then it's been like peeling an onion every day another peel comes off and you see a whole new dimension to this. so my concern has actually escalated over the last few days. >> all right. and for the first time secretary of defense leon panetta, who previously served as director of the cia, weighed in about general david petraeus' sudden resignation. during a flight to australia reporters asked if general t petraeus could be prosecuted if it's determined he was having an affair while on active duty in the military. >> you know, i don't know. i don't know the answer to that. i guess i'm reading the papers like you are to determine just, you know, what the committee finds out, what the ultimate investigation determines on that issue. we obviously are going to watch

this closely to determine just exactly when that took place. >> panetta also appeared to side with lawmakers who say the fbi should have informed them about the investigation sooner. >> that's another issue i think we ought to look at because, you know, as a former director of the cia and having worked very closely with the intelligence committee i believe that there is a responsibility to make sure that the intelligence committees are informed of issues that could affect the security of those intelligence operations. >> all right. can we move on. >> this all began with an investigation that from what we've seen over two days a lot of experts are asking why it started, and i think that's a legitimate question.

>> can i clarify something. >> unless it's something to clarify what i said. >> the shirtless agent from the topless bar, he's the guy who then went to the republicans on capitol hill. because he thought the investigation had stalled and was trying to now he canively effectively go freelance. >> he was a runaway beer truck. to get republicans to jump on this because he thought his colleagues had dropped the ball. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> to add to our discussion why did republicans like eric cantor decide not to make an issue of this before the election may have been that they had -- and the reason they reported it back to the fbi they had some question about the motives of this agent. they may have been behaving responsibly by not politicizing this, not taking this public because they could see this it guy conceivably was a rogue

agent. >> you get a lot of crazy calls, a lot of crazy e-mails. i'm sure they probably didn't believe it but said we'll pass it on. i want to read a quote, this is from "the new york times," a story on the fbi inquiring into e-mail raises questions on motives. it's on page a-11. george washington university law professor who specializes in computer crime says it was, quote, surprising that they would devote such resources to an investigation that was behind a half a dozen e-mails. the fbi gets a lot of tips in investigating any one case requires an agent or a few agents to spend a lot of time and said they can't do this for every case and the issue is why this one case? and, again, for what we have gathered over two days, there were no harassing e-mails. the only specifics are does 0 your husband know what you're doing? it's one e-mail. and another e-mail, again, straight from fifth grade, you

know, home ec class, i saw you touching david inappropriately under the kinner table. and for this the fbi launches an investigation that takes down a cia director? >> by the way, ravages the lives of many people. >> destroys the lives of many people. i mean, the fbi has so much to answer for. >> and for that -- >> in this age of it terror -- >> and for that going through a private citizen's e-mails which the bar on that should be relatively high. there are two big policy questions to be examined. why was this investigation launched? why were they going through people's private e-mails and the other is the note ification iss. sometimes members of congress complain they don't get enough notification but in this case not notifying the white house, not notifying the congressional oversight, i can't under that.

>> it's disgraceful. the question to ask is this. we talk about the fbi and the cia hating each other, i wonder if the fbi agents would have followed this through if it had been the fbi director that had been mentioned here because there's no suggestion of any crime. there's a suggestion that maybe the head of the cia may be involved in something like this but, again, strictly personal, harassing e-mails, no threatening e-mails. they launch again, i can't underline it enough, a half dozen nonthreatening, we believe, e-mails based on what we know, based on a romantic battle over the affections of one man perhaps. and you may have been -- i know what you're doing and i saw -- you know, somebody saw you touching him inappropriately under the table. jon meacham, again, in the post-9/11 era where the fbi is

supposed to be protecting our children from terrorist attacks, they waste resources on this and bring down the director of the cia on this? a shirtless, you know, an fbi agent. it's disgraceful. it appears disgraceful what the fbi has done here. >> and there's a game we like to play around my house called what are the odds. what are the odds you get an apparently republican leaning fbi agent so interested in a woman he sends her shirtless pictures who is the agent -- >> first of all, the republicans send shirtless photos. odds are pretty good there. >> here you have this highly decorated man whom we all talk about his doctrine and the remarkable career and this series of really odd coincidences leads to this chain of events and what i continue to not understand is the chain of

responsible command inside the fbi and at what point, you know, where did the warrant come from. at what point was some responsible officer there to say, no, there's nothing here? >> how do you get a warrant for that? what do you tell the judge? and, again, in talking about the fbi talking about the judge, let's talk again about all the walls the fbi crashed through. first of all, they launch a -- they use their cyber unit to launch an investigation on half a dozen e-mails talking about a purported affair. and so they launch a cyber investigation there. and then they start digging in. they have to go into a private citizen's e-mail account. and so they go into paula broadwell's private e-mail accounts. they have just crashed through a wall there. the facts as we know it do not justify other than somebody wants to embarrass david petraeus. >> right. >> and so then they get into w paula broadwell's e-mails. then they have to break down

another wall to get into david petraeus' e-mail account. and then they justify that and break down that wall, well, you know, national security may have been compromised because she may have sent along classified documents. so there somebody responsible has to say, nothing to see here. it's internal investigation. you know, tpetraeus may be actig up but this is no longer a crime. they said it wasn't a crime and then at that point they break through that wall. and then they spread it out beyond the walls of the fbi. >> but is there not -- it seems like the first instance here is like the original sin. the first decision -- >> the original sin is the biggest sin. >> because once they get to -- at least, again, not being an expert but reading the news accounts, once they get to the point they know that petraeus and broadwell have set up separate e-mail accounts to communicate with each other, according to the nauz accounts -- no, not a crime --

they said according to the news accounts the fbi started to think that outsiders had been able to get access to petraeus' private e-mail account which, again, at least starts to create a justification for thinking about concerns about classified security breaches. again, i'm not trying to justify the whole thing. >> so you break down that wall. you break down that wall, and they're afraid now that david petraeus is giving paula broadwell classified information. okay, you conduct your information. you find out that's not the case at all. these two adults are having an affair. what do you do then? you know what you do then? you say there's no crime here. you know what, this is a witch-hunt. or at the very least a fishing expedition and, guys, we fished long enough. no crime. let's close up the case, box it up. this is nobody's business but david petraeus' wife and it's not your job to tell david petraeus' wife. coming up, we'll talk to senator amy klobuchar and the rise of women.

also her thoughts on finding a bipartisan solution to the fiscal cliff. by the way it's women who will be able to solve this problem. and next, a u.s. army veteran turned author who after serving in iraq is now receiving critical acclaim for his debut novel. kevin powers joins us next. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? good tuesday morning to you, mika. rain is moving through the big cities up the east coast. so far the airports are holding up okay. it's just a light rain and temperatures are going it to fall during the day. you see the map. there is a little bit of heavier rain up through the poconos but we're locked in just a solid shield of light rain. washington, d.c., baltimore, i'd say for another hour or two during the peak of rush hour. the same are for the tail end of rush hour in new york city. airports, as i mentioned, are doing okay, actually. only a 30-minute delay in philly. i expect the rains to come down harder around the new york city airports. probably about a half hour to one-hour delays this morning. forecast wise, the rain this morning will clear out this afternoon. temperatures will fall. look how chilly it is back there

for buffalo and pittsburgh and all of the cold air expands throughout much of the country from dallas, even new orleans is a little chilly, to minneapolis, to denver. but everyone is dry in the midwest and the deep south. should have lots of sunshine today with cool, crisp air. some showers up there in seattle. now a heads-up, this is the next weather event that we need to watch. it doesn't look to be a huge event. because of the areas affected by sandy it looks like another coastal wind event sunday into tuesday. the tail end of this upcoming weekend, windy and rainy. if this storm lingers two or three days we could see minor coastal flooding and beach erosion. thankfully the astronomical high tides aren't bad with this event. just not what we need in the areas that have little protection from the ocean at this point because there are no more dunes left after sandy and that nor'easter. a shot of a cold, chrrisp st. louis and the beautiful arch. a nice afternoon, though, enjoy. you're watching "morning joe." [ male announcer ] humana and walmart have teamed up

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i love this story. >> i love this song. >> joining us now a veteran of the u.s. army, kevin powers. kevin served in iraq from 2004 to 2005. and has used his time there as inspiration for his first novel "the yellow birds." the book has received widespread critical acclaim and has been named a finalist for both the national book award in the fiction category as well as the guardian first book award.

congratulations. did you ever think? >> no, i certainly didn't. no, it's been quite a surprise. >> i'm trying to think the concept of writing, was that your lifelong dream? >> i think it was. i mean, from the time i was 12 or 13, writing and reading is how i tried to understand the world. but it wasn't until after i got back that i sort of realized that i don't have anything to lose by giving it a shot now and i've already been through the most difficult thing i could possibly go through. why not roll the dice, take a chance and see what happens. >> i started reading it. it's just a fantastic book. this is from "the yellow bird. "the war had killed thousands by september. the bodies lined the pokd avenues at irregular intervals. they were hidden in alleys, were found in bloating piles in the troughs of the hills outside the cities, the faces puffed and green allergic now to life.

the war had tried its best to kill us all, man, woman, child. but it had killed less than 1,000 soldiers like me and m murph. those numbers still meant something to us as what passed for fall began. murph and i agreed we didn't want to be the 1,000th killed. if we died later, then we died. but let that number be someone else's milestone. talk about that year and talk about that milestone. >> right. well, i think, you know, for me that passage comes from this idea that somehow you can be saved from these circumstances that are absolutely beyond your control and you have such a limited ability to affect even your own safety. and i wanted to find a way to communicate that confusion, the feeling of powerlessness. of course you are trained. you understand your job, people

around you are trained. but there is this idea that there's something larger that has sort of a life of its own and a mind of its own and you're stuck inside of it in a way. >> mark? >> thank you for your service to america. >> i appreciate it. >> congratulations on the book. people who write good books like to get good blurbs. that's pretty good blurb. congratulations on that. >> that's not so bad either. >> so you talked a little bit before we started about when you thought of this. so you're over in the theater, did you think about the book there or 0 only after you got back? >> well, after i got back. i mean, it's fair to say that, you know, i was pretty occupied both mentally and physically while i was overseas. i didn't have a lot of time to write or anything like that. i mean, my mother would send me books and care packages and i might get five pages in a week of reading, something like that.

when i got back and people started asking me what's it really like over there? you think there's all this information, of course the correspondents are doing really important jobs of getting that information out there. i just want ed to find another way to try to approach that question and i realized i didn't really know the answer myself, what is it like? how can i describe this to another person so that they understand that experience. >> i'm reading here that the book deals with the question of what's good, that you've said this one way the way i thought about it was to ask myself what it means to want be to be good and fail. is an individual's goodness a measurement of their actions or can we factor in what they want to be? what if the circumstances you find yourself in prevent you from being good? can you talk more about that? >> right. well, and i think a lot of it has to do with the choices the narrator has to make in the

book. he has this desperate need to find some meaning in that experience and one of those -- one of the things he does is offers to protect this younger soldier, less experienced soldier and, you know, he has to deal with the consequences, those choices, his inability to meet his own expectation for what he wants to be as far as a good person, a good soldier. yeah, so those kinds of challenges were really interesting to me and i really wanted to explore them the best i could. >> let me ask you a writer's question. the war is one of the great topics for great literature, fiction and nonfiction. you think about the inspirations that you have, writers that have written on this topic -- >> sure. >> either fiction or nonfiction that you look to as you drew from as you sat down and tried to do this. >> well, i think, you know, it's hard not to think about the work that tim o'brien's done. he's such an incredible writer but being somebody who is interested in poetry, also, a

vietnam veteran and an incredible poet and a national treasure. but even going back further, hemingway, david jones, people who have written about the first world war, there's a lot of material out there. even now there are more veterans who are starting to write books that are coming out now and i think it's really important that there's a diverse itity of expression coming out now, too. >> mika was talking about how you dealt with a question of what is good. you also deal with the randomness of war. we've seen other novelists and other accounts. talk about that and how it plays in this book. >> well, and i think particularly for the narrator and even in my own experience when you're coming home and you're trying to make sense of that experience, it can become difficult to kind of make a narrative, create a narrative that will add up to something that you can really deal with.

and the randomness is part of that because you have these pieces and you try to put them together and they just don't fit together and there's really no explanation for why one person lived and one person didn't, why one person was wounded or not and it could be hard to sort through that in your own mind. >> and we do see -- isn't that a real problem, you talk about people having such a terrible time recovering when they come home and sorting through the posttraumatic stress, sorting through why they survived, why this friend died, why that -- >> and the definition of good after all is said and done. >> no, i think -- >> there's just no easy answers. the puzzle pieces don't fit together. >> that's absolutely true. and i think even as much as, you know, from my own experience, as much as i appreciate the gestures of gratitude, even those can be confusing because they immediately remind you of

things that aren't that pleasant, things that you may regret, things that you -- that cause you great pain. and so to be thanked for those things, it's like a cognitive distance. >> we were say iing when you sa the picture at the white house getting the highest honor anybody could get, he was uncomfortable. he didn't want to be there. >> right. >> he said what so many war heroes say, i didn't deserve it. i didn't deserve to be there. i was an abject failure. it's something you grapple with. people come up and slap you on the back, thank you for your service, even that can be difficult. >> that's absolutely true and one of the things i wanted to look at in the book was the feeling of being isolated inside of that experience. how do you get out? how do you connect with your family? i mean, the mothers of these two soldiers that are the focus of

the book, their story is just as important and i think my mother had a tour of her own in a way, you know. and i thought it was important to try to tell that story and how do you reconnect with your family members when you come back? because that is another kind of challenge. the danger doesn't end just because you get back to america. it's just a danger of a different kind. >> give too much away to tell what the title means? >> no, it comes from -- >> we can't really read it on the air, can we? >> you probably can't, no. >> it's an army marching cadence. a yellow bird with a yellow bill was perched upon my windowsill. we won't read the next phrase. >> the bird does not end up in a great place. >> no, he doesn't. no. >> all right. well, thank you so much. >> the first line of the book, the war tried to kill us in the spring, a great first line. and you can tell a lot about how good a book is by the first line. >> john heilemann, he either just looks at the cover or reads

the first line. >> the book is "the yellow birds." you can read an excerpt online. kevin powers, thank you very much. >> by the way, what's the first line of game change? republican in the spring, what, sarah palin -- >> it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. >> call me ismael. >> so here we go. again, the all quiet on the western front of america's arab wars, so writes tom wolf -- >> the tom wolf. >> the tom wolf. not our friend. not tommy. thank you so much. >> thank you so much. when we come back our next guest overwhelmingly won re-election to hold on to her senate seat, amy klobuchar of minnesota joins us next. two years ago, the people of bp made a commitment to the gulf.

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it took about three months to get this ticket going. we had good days, we had bad days. it's a great experience. i'm fortunate to have had this

experience. losing never feels good. i respect the fact that the process is done, that the president won the race, and i congratulate him on the race. we now are have divided government like we did before. the divided government we had in the last two years didn't work. we're going to have to make this divided government work. >> that's former vice presidential candidate paul ryan talking about the looming political battle as congress returns to session sewed. before we bring in our next guest, i just want to read, mika, the first paragraph. >> it's unbelievable. >> kevin is gone but he says his mother watches every day so this is for his mother. >> okay, mom. >> this is for everybody at home listening to this. the war tried to kill us in the spring as the grass greened, the plains and the weather warmed, we patrolled the low slung hills beyond the cities and towns. we moved over them and through the tall grass on faith, needing paths into the windswept growth like pioneers. while we slept, the war of 1,000 ribs against the ground in prayer. when we press on ward through

exhaustion, its eyes were white and open in the dark. while we ate, the war fasted, fed by its own deprivation. it made love and gave birth and spread through fire. >> and i'm just being told he's 32 years old. >> 32 years old. >> that's not how young people write. >> it's not bad. not bad at all. >> amazing. >> and for young, struggling writers, he told us he went through a lot of drafts. >> and to his mom in rich mourned -- is she in richmond? great job. >> it tells you a lot, this is a kid with a really serious fine art with literature. >> "the yellow birds." an incredible book. joining us now democratic snore from minnesota, amy klobuchar. great to have you. >> thank you, mika. >> congratulations. >> thank you. >> a lot of good things happening in washington? >> well, we hope so. >> where do we begin? >> i was listening to kevin and

thinking about everything he did for his country and to think that people are not going to be able to get together and get something done for the country is an appalling thought. and so i tend to look at this much more optimistically than some people. i see when you look at the last year in the senate there were a mum of people that were able to work together across the aisle. the american people are demanding this. you look at the fact they rejected a number of candidates that basically espoused rigid ideologies in favor of candidates that were problem solvers and many times women like a heidi heitkamp. she did it. i see this possibility especially with what the country demands. we can't go on 0 the way we are. we have to bring our debt down in a balanced way. the president has put out an olive branch and you have conservative commentators 0 like bill kristol saying he should talk to the president. >> what do you do to keep that appalling thought from coming back? >> the key thing here is to be willing to not stand in the

opposite corners of the boxing ring and throw punches, that courage is not going to be just giving some dramatic speech for your own base. courage is whether you are willing to stand next to someone you don't always agree with for the betterment of this country. >> being 0. so let's put our money where our mouth is. you're saying it right now. what is it that the democrats have to give that they haven't wanted to but they will, that you think they should? >> i think, first of all, spending cuts clearly are part of this. you look at the budget control act. no one likes the ougautomatic nature of the sequestration but that has to be a piece of this reform. i think you're going to see some work on social security to keep it solvent. we've gotten a start with affordable care act on medicare but more needs to be done. with respect to florida there are states that are not always as efficient in their delivery systems. the mayo clinic is a great example what you can get done. a lot of money can be saved and

encouraging high quality care if you go that route. there's much more work that needs to be done. the key is, first of all, to get an agreement by the end of the year. >> absolutely. >> a lot of focus on speaker boehner and his role and where his head is at. mitch mcconnell, where do you think his head is at in terms of trying to work on a compromise? >> well, i'm not in his head right now but i do know that he is able to get deals done, and you look at the last year in the senate was a little bit of an unsupg story but the senate was able to move through the farm bill with 80 votes. the faa reauthorization of the transportation bill with barbara boxer and inhofe working together, payroll tax, the pa enter reform bill. some were pushed through the house. the senate got those things done and that showed a willingness on mitch mcconnell's part with some of his members to get things done. he knows how to get votes so hopefully he will realize as we go forward that our country

depends on this and you saw the claer message from the voters. yes, the balance of power didn't change. everyone knows that. we're all still going to have to work together but there clearly was a message that for some people that weren't willing to compromise, they lost their elections and hopefully that will get through. >> stay with that in the senate. you have a core -- put aside mitch mcconnell, you have republicans who, i wouldn't say they're moderates but they're conservatives of the lamar alexander, bob corker, rob portman school who clearly take questions like deficit reduction seriously. does it seem to you like there's a sweet spot where the white house working with democrats in the senate and that collection of republican, again, not moderates but mainstream conservatives can just pretty easily put together on the senate side some kind of approach, a grand bargain, that would put us in the right place? >> that was a group went through those bills between 62 and 75 senators that voted for them so you had at least half the republicans with democrats.

we're going to need that. we might lose some democrats on the budget deal so it's very important those republicans work with us and to get this done. >> we shall see. all right. well, what's your top priority? >> well, it's bringing the debt down, moving the economy forward. i think we need a competitive agenda for this country so we're actually working with business to increase exports, to look at some of the rules and regulations. minnesota is second per capita for fortune 500 companies. we care a lot about moving forward with getting workers trained in science, technology, those kinds of things. i think there are exciting opportunities. i think immigration reform has a possibility. >> on competitiveness across the globe, are corporate tax rates too high in america? >> i think they should be brought down but that has got to be part of a bigger deal. we can't just bring them down and not pay for them. it will be closing the subsidies whether it's the oil subsidy, whether it's looking at some of the other ones. so if we could get some grand deal and i think it could happen, where businesses are onboard. not everyone will like it but

where you bring the business rates down in exchange for taking those levels on the bush tax cuts for people making over $250,000, clothing subsidies and loopholes and then adding in the spending cuts, that's how we do it and put the business community onboard in part by making these reductions in the corporate tax rate. >> senator klobuchar, congratulations on everything. >> congratulations. good luck. >> okay. >> up next, a big development in u.s. oil production with potentially major implications on our national security. that story next. [ male announcer ] it's that time of year again.

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l let's please take another look at the morning papers. "the wall street journal," a boom in shale oil will help the u.s. overtake saudi arabia as the world's largest oil producer by 2020. >> can you say that again, mika? can you say that again? >> by then the u.s. is expected to produce 11 million barrels of oil a day. the u.s. oil production peaked in 1970 at 9.5 million barrels. >> we are going to be the number one exporter of oil across the globe, producer of oil across the globe by 2020. >> it changes the dynamic, doesn't it? >> everything. everything. you know what, we may not have to occupy foreign countries for a decade. >> that would be useful. >> seriously. this is a revolution. >> that's not funny. >> no, this is a revolution economically. natural gas, it's unbelievable. oil. >> we have to get off fossil fuels. roasting the planet. >> we are going too much the

money to invest. alternate energy. >> rising use of antibiotics in the southeastern united states is leaving people there at higher risk of hard to treat infections. in kentucky and tennessee prescribed nearly twice as many antibiotics as those in california, oregon and washington state. researchers say common infections are becoming increasingly immune to antibiotic treatments. >> be careful with that stuff. >> up next the comedians are salivating over the petraeus scandal. the best of late night is next. have a good night. here you go. you, too. i'm going to dream about that steak. i'm going to dream about that tiramisu. what a night, huh? but, um, can the test drive be over now? head back to the dealership? [ male announcer ] it's practically yours. but we still need your signature. volkswagen sign then drive is back. and it's never been easier to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering.

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the dramatic fall from grace of one of the most respected military men of this generation. >> please, don't be captain america. please don't be captain america. >> one of the most respected military men of this generation. cia director and retired four star general david petraeus stepped down friday after admitting to an extramarital affair. >> it was captain america. >> its leader accused of sexual misconduct, threatening e-mails from the lover to another woman,

a wife scorned. is america's security at risk? find out tuesday on the next "jerry springer." [ bleep ] "jerry springer cia smackdown." lists all done. raise the roof!

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[ cheers and applause ] we should be dancing. >> we should be dancing. >> welcome back. we should be dancing. time to talk about what we learned today. what did you learn? >> mika is a huge pittsburgh fan apparently. >> she's massive. >> what? what are you talking about? >> got to read that book and also amy klobuchar. >> landslide. >> what did you learn? >> i just can't help myself, state champions, the broncos, in the 5,000 meters. kaitlyn, hillary, delia, morgan, courtney, amelia and even meredith who went all the way up to